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Post by lynnee on Dec 26, 2023 17:30:17 GMT -5
After every R&R, my AG plants seem to have a growth spurt. This is really noticeable with the Dwarf Awesome tomato in a Bounty. This last time, it immediately started ripening one tomato and enlarging another. Cherry tomatoes seem to do the same thing. They get really busy on building that thick leaf canopy, or on producing blooms. Does anyone else notice this? I keep wondering whether it is the fresh water or the added nutrients that are responsible. Are the plants needing nutrients, so that they would benefit from nutrients added more often than the AG-recommended "every two weeks"?  |
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Post by tompepper7 on Dec 26, 2023 18:45:30 GMT -5
Does anyone else notice this? I keep wondering whether it is the fresh water or the added nutrients that are responsible. Are the plants needing nutrients, so that they would benefit from nutrients added more often than the AG-recommended "every two weeks"? I have been doing R&Rs on a weekly schedule. The Fox Farm nutrients suggest this. I've been doing it with the Masterblend Tomato and Greenway Lettuce also. |
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Post by scarfguy on Dec 26, 2023 21:30:07 GMT -5
Does anyone else notice this? I keep wondering whether it is the fresh water or the added nutrients that are responsible. Are the plants needing nutrients, so that they would benefit from nutrients added more often than the AG-recommended "every two weeks"? I have been doing R&Rs on a weekly schedule. The Fox Farm nutrients suggest this. I've been doing it with the Masterblend Tomato and Greenway Lettuce also.
I notice growth spurts but I also notice growth pauses. Right now, I have a healthy green pepper plant that just decided the last two days to not drink much water or deplete nutrients. I can't understand why??? After a few days, these periods are usually followed by a growth spurt.
You are doing a couple of things with an R&R that your plants probably like. First you are probably changing the pH. If your pH gets out of range, the plant has trouble processing nutrients. Your R&R is rebalancing the pH so the plant can use the nutrients.
The second thing an R&R is doing is adding a lot of dissolved oxygen. DO is frequently overlooked as important. A bowl full of roots and warm water makes it very difficult for the pump to create adequate dissolved oxygen. Because I'm trying to grow large plants in a bounty, towards maturity, I've been adding a couple of aquarium air stones to assist the pump at oxygenation. So far, it seems to make a significant difference. (yes, I bought an expensive dissolved oxygen meter cause the curiosity got the better of me) ====
I have yet to find a definitive answer to a basic question that I've had since I've started this endeavor. That is, when they say, for example, that your EC should be 1.8, does that mean that you should maintain an EC of 1.8 by feeding every couple of days OR OR does that mean that you should add nutrients to achieve an EC of 1.8 and then let it drop as the plant feeds until the next weekly or biweekly feeding  |
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Post by tompepper7 on Dec 26, 2023 21:51:51 GMT -5
I do not add nutrients to water already in the Aerogarden. I am mixing the nutrients in a small bucket/pail with a paint stirrer. This probably creates some aeration.
I am removing the old nutrients, filling with water only to dilute any remaining nutrients, then refilling with the new nutrients.
I think the suggested Aerogarden regimen has to be understood as a whole. You are adding the nutrients to water already in the Aerogarden, only changing the water once a month or so. This seems like a minimum suggestion that may be all some people would want to do but others would do more if it was better. Suppose mixing the nutrients in the water before adding it to the Aerogarden (this includes any cal/mag or bloom mixtures), weekly nutrient changes with a water flush.
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Post by lynnee on Dec 27, 2023 17:54:29 GMT -5
scarfguy, If you ever figure out the EC thing, be sure to post about it! I gave up, because I got so many different readings. Maybe I should try again, but I kind of prefer "seat of the pants" gardening (adding extra nutrients, etc. when plants look a bit down). It makes me feel like some kind of gardening genius when the plants respond and do well.  But you just mentioned a new gadget! What kind of dissolved oxygen meter did you buy?
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Post by lynnee on Dec 27, 2023 18:01:13 GMT -5
tompepper7, an R&R every two weeks does seem a lot better than the monthly flush that AG recommends. When I first started with AGs, I didn't do R&Rs at all, because AG only recommended it, and I didn't know how to do it. 
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Post by scarfguy on Dec 27, 2023 18:25:33 GMT -5
But you just mentioned a new gadget! What kind of dissolved oxygen meter did you buy?
Oh... I bought one of these:
This is a rather tricky instrument to use. There is a permeable membrane that has to be installed with an electrolyte solution and it has to be closed without trapping any bubbles. It takes a little practice.
If you want an absolute value for dissolved oxygen, you have to take the reading you get and do a bit of math to account for temperature, dissolved salts, and (believe it or not) atmospheric pressure!
I'm not interested in an exact number. I'm just interested in relative change. I just wanted to see if adding an air stone significantly improved the DO level. I found out that I got the best results by adding 2 air stones.
FYI, 100% oxygen saturation is about 9 mg / L. You can't get anywhere near that. It's important to know that plants need at least about 5 mg / L of O2 to not suffocate.
On my cantaloupe, I measured 5.8 mg / L with the pump. With the addition of 2 airstones I increase the O2 to about 7 mg / L.
I think, perhaps, when our plants look sick and we tried every thing with pH, EC, water, nutrients, and nothing helps. Our problem may indeed be oxygen levels.
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Post by lynnee on Dec 28, 2023 0:59:03 GMT -5
scarfguy, thanks for that explanation! Clearly a dissolved oxygen meter is too fiddly for me, but I can see how curiosity might lead one to invest in one. Maybe I'll try adding airstones the next time that a valued plant seems to be stalled. I think you may well be right, that oxygenation is the problem when nothing else helps a sick plant. 
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tdse
AGA Sprout
Posts: 122
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Post by tdse on Dec 28, 2023 8:27:26 GMT -5
I am definitely no expert, and have yet to find a black and white answer on this, but from the research I've done, it seems like maintaining a constant EC (or as constant as possible) makes the most sense. I equate this to soil gardening and "time release" fertilizers. I think nutrients are much more stable / available in a soil environment, but we need to maintain those nutrients in hydroponics. Also think about large commercial hydroponic growers - they constantly monitor EC/pH levels, and adjust as needed. I've also found a few articles that seem to infer that constant levels are preferred: Electrical Conductivity & pH Guide for Hydroponics - OK State Extenstion - see "Important Points" - "pH should always be checked after getting the EC into the optimum range. The pH and EC should be checked daily.
Check the pH and EC at the same time of day. Water temperature of 72 to 75 F is optimal." This is also a good article: The Art of Growing Blog (Bluelab) - see this note after the EC Crop Values chart: "You should expect that your EC value will fluctuate, which is why it's so important to measure EC every single day. By doing so, you'll be able to spot and fix issues much more quickly. It's especially important to measure EC on warmer days, as your plants may only be taking up water, not nutrients, which would raise your EC considerably." I measure my EC/pH roughly weekly, and almost always end up adjusting slightly. I try to do R&R's every other week (at least on the larger / fruiting plants), but life often gets in the way, and I probably average monthly. |
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Post by scarfguy on Dec 28, 2023 8:44:40 GMT -5
Thanks so much for that post, tdse. That's the best information I've gotten on the issue.
I purchased a few of these really cool devices. They are constant monitors of EC, pH, and temp.
The probe fits perfectly into one of the pod holes. I added an "O" ring to make a better seal to the deck.
With these, you can check your values just by having a quick look as you walk past. I learned a lot by using these. I'm finding myself checking my EC daily and adjusting it 2 or 3 times a week.
You can add nutrients and watch the EC rise so that you can get it right where you want it.
You can readily see the effects on pH when you add nutrients. I discovered that there is a wide range of pH among brands of nutrients. Some are well balanced, others are quite acidic (fox farm hydroponic is really acidic)
Balancing pH is quick and easy also. I found myself adding too much phUP and the phDOWN and back and forth. With this meter, I add a little at a time and watch the pH change. Much quicker and more accurate.
The probe on these are quite long. If your AGs are near each other, you can easily move one probe from one unit to the next. You really don't need to buy one device for each AG.
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tdse
AGA Sprout
Posts: 122
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Post by tdse on Dec 28, 2023 9:18:08 GMT -5
Thanks so much for that post, tdse . That's the best information I've gotten on the issue.
I purchased a few of these really cool devices. They are constant monitors of EC, pH, and temp.
The probe fits perfectly into one of the pod holes. I added an "O" ring to make a better seal to the deck.
With these, you can check your values just by having a quick look as you walk past. I learned a lot by using these. I'm finding myself checking my EC daily and adjusting it 2 or 3 times a week.
You can add nutrients and watch the EC rise so that you can get it right where you want it.
You can readily see the effects on pH when you add nutrients. I discovered that there is a wide range of pH among brands of nutrients. Some are well balanced, others are quite acidic (fox farm hydroponic is really acidic)
Balancing pH is quick and easy also. I found myself adding too much phUP and the phDOWN and back and forth. With this meter, I add a little at a time and watch the pH change. Much quicker and more accurate.
The probe on these are quite long. If your AGs are near each other, you can easily move one probe from one unit to the next. You really don't need to buy one device for each AG.
Ooo...very cool. Something to use my Amazon "rewards" points on, maybe I might start with one, at least for the Farm. I agree with you - I've done the "over-adjusting" thing a couple times -- pH up, then down, then up, then down, then dumping the water and starting over. One thing I took away from those reads is that a regular R&R is still very valuable. Obviously for reasons you stated below (dissolved oxygen), but also because while EC will tell you the "overall" conductivity, it does not tell you "which" nutrients are still present vs. having been fully depleted. |
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Post by scarfguy on Dec 28, 2023 9:37:41 GMT -5
One thing I took away from those reads is that a regular R&R is still very valuable. Obviously for reasons you stated below (dissolved oxygen), but also because while EC will tell you the "overall" conductivity, it does not tell you "which" nutrients are still present vs. having been fully depleted.
Yea, the other thing that I have always wondered is, does the plant create waste products that are expelled through the roots? Not only do we need to do an R&R to return DO levels, adjust the EC balance of nutrients BUT, perhaps, we have to remove waste products?
There is no easy way to determine the relative proportion of nutrients. You have to send a leaf sample to a lab for testing. From what I've seen, you have to pay for each test. For example, amount of N is one test, amount of P is one test, amount of K is one test. Each test costs about $20. Not only is this cost prohibitive for the home grower, by the time you are done, you have no more leaves on your plant!
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Post by lynnee on Jan 1, 2024 23:52:01 GMT -5
Thanks so much for that post, tdse. That's the best information I've gotten on the issue. I purchased a few of these really cool devices. They are constant monitors of EC, pH, and temp. The probe fits perfectly into one of the pod holes. I added an "O" ring to make a better seal to the deck. With these, you can check your values just by having a quick look as you walk past. I learned a lot by using these. I'm finding myself checking my EC daily and adjusting it 2 or 3 times a week.
You can add nutrients and watch the EC rise so that you can get it right where you want it. You can readily see the effects on pH when you add nutrients. I discovered that there is a wide range of pH among brands of nutrients. Some are well balanced, others are quite acidic (fox farm hydroponic is really acidic) Balancing pH is quick and easy also. I found myself adding too much phUP and the phDOWN and back and forth. With this meter, I add a little at a time and watch the pH change. Much quicker and more accurate.
The probe on these are quite long. If your AGs are near each other, you can easily move one probe from one unit to the next. You really don't need to buy one device for each AG.
Those are extremely cool devices! I set one up today, and checked the water in a Bounty with a thriving Veranda Red tomato. The pH is around 7 (same as our tap water), and the ppm and EC readings are within the range for tomatoes on the included chart. The chart is as cool as the device! This should help me diagnose problems with plants that are crisping up or otherwise performing poorly. I decided not to install the wireless app, which requires some permissions that I was a little uncomfortable with, given that I wouldn't be using it much. I'm using the probe as a tester, not as something that will closely monitor a single plant. I'm getting really paranoid about internet security, after reading about a data breach that exposed mortagees' names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, passwords, SSNs, and bank account numbers. This is the Mr. Cooper breach. |
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Post by scarfguy on Jan 2, 2024 6:50:26 GMT -5
I decided not to install the wireless app, which requires some permissions that I was a little uncomfortable with, given that I wouldn't be using it much. I'm using the probe as a tester, not as something that will closely monitor a single plant.
I didn't install the wifi app either. It looked kinda wonky and, how should I say, a little too much chinese for my liking (I didn't trust it)
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Post by lynnee on Jan 2, 2024 9:38:17 GMT -5
I didn't install the wifi app either. It looked kinda wonky and, how should I say, a little too much chinese for my liking (I didn't trust it) Ha! Maybe I'm not as paranoid as I thought! |
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pfunnyjoy
AGA Bounty
Made more grow room in my office!
Posts: 621 
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Post by pfunnyjoy on Feb 3, 2024 16:29:08 GMT -5
Does anyone else notice this? I keep wondering whether it is the fresh water or the added nutrients that are responsible. Are the plants needing nutrients, so that they would benefit from nutrients added more often than the AG-recommended "every two weeks"? I have been doing R&Rs on a weekly schedule. The Fox Farm nutrients suggest this. I've been doing it with the Masterblend Tomato and Greenway Lettuce also. I've been thinking weekly might be better, at least with some of my gardens! I was shocked how low the nutrients were in the kale garden last night! It did explain why I hadn't seen as much growth lately. The only trouble is that it's a bit of work for me, and tough on my back carting the siphoned water to a sink and dumping it. I did four gardens yesterday, the Harvest 360 with the cherry tomatoes upstairs, and the Tatsoi, kale, and ground cherries downstairs and I'm feeling it today. |
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pfunnyjoy
AGA Bounty
Made more grow room in my office!
Posts: 621
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Post by pfunnyjoy on Feb 3, 2024 16:35:23 GMT -5
Thanks so much for that post, tdse . That's the best information I've gotten on the issue. I purchased a few of these really cool devices. They are constant monitors of EC, pH, and temp. The probe fits perfectly into one of the pod holes. I added an "O" ring to make a better seal to the deck. With these, you can check your values just by having a quick look as you walk past. I learned a lot by using these. I'm finding myself checking my EC daily and adjusting it 2 or 3 times a week.
You can add nutrients and watch the EC rise so that you can get it right where you want it. You can readily see the effects on pH when you add nutrients. I discovered that there is a wide range of pH among brands of nutrients. Some are well balanced, others are quite acidic (fox farm hydroponic is really acidic) Balancing pH is quick and easy also. I found myself adding too much phUP and the phDOWN and back and forth. With this meter, I add a little at a time and watch the pH change. Much quicker and more accurate.
The probe on these are quite long. If your AGs are near each other, you can easily move one probe from one unit to the next. You really don't need to buy one device for each AG.
Those are extremely cool devices! I set one up today, and checked the water in a Bounty with a thriving Veranda Red tomato. The pH is around 7 (same as our tap water), and the ppm and EC readings are within the range for tomatoes on the included chart. The chart is as cool as the device! This should help me diagnose problems with plants that are crisping up or otherwise performing poorly. I decided not to install the wireless app, which requires some permissions that I was a little uncomfortable with, given that I wouldn't be using it much. I'm using the probe as a tester, not as something that will closely monitor a single plant. I'm getting really paranoid about internet security, after reading about a data breach that exposed mortagees' names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, passwords, SSNs, and bank account numbers. This is the Mr. Cooper breach.  I'm starting to feel like I need one, but I'm pretty sure I best not just yet. Spent enough on the garden front for awhile. Perhaps when my birthday rolls around... I do go through pH test drops like crazy though, so either something like this or a pH pen, but this sounds so cool! I wouldn't use the app either, you really don't know what info some apps are sending where you might not want it going. |
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Post by scarfguy on Feb 3, 2024 17:36:41 GMT -5
If anybody is looking for a nice pH meter, I recommend this one from Hanna Instruments:
It's a bit more expensive than most of stick types but not nearly as expensive as the lab machines.
I didn't know it when I bought it but it has the added advantage of fitting perfectly into the AG water jug. SO... you don't have to hold it while it stabilizes.
NOTE: It looks like there is a newer, cheaper version available so I don't know if this model is soon gonna be unavailable.
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